"Crowdsourcing" is taking over the photo industry

[mik]

professionalism, courtesy, ethics and morality.

   i do what i want, you do what you want. if these two things break no laws and are not evil in their own right, then these  expectations being thrust on amateurs is just pros expecting they are entitled to a level playing field. if someone were trying to put you out of business on purpose by giving free images away to then gain control over the market or even out of spite then yeah i could understand the morality talk. 

 maybe cause photography is an art there is some misguided notion that there should be some exemption from competition, whether it be price or percieved quality. or that competition in these areas is unprofessional.

 we're told to value our work, even if we don't respect or value other's. well that is just condescending. a man can respect your work and artistry and sell cheaper all day long, it doesn't mean he has a low opinion of himself, that's projection from the pro being beat in the market. others have listed reasons they give images free, none immoral.
 
  i doubt any two pros have the same financial situation. does the single guy paying all his own bills really have the right to expect that the second pro who is married and who's wife is working and covering the nut to charge the same for pictures and give up his competitive edge, or if he charges the same and profits more is that unfair? is the wealthy retired guy traveling the world in pursuit of his passion immoral cause he charges the same as the single guy even though he doesn't really need the money to feed his family?

 

 being emplored to act professionally or with courtesy in regards to pricing or whether images are given away and then twisting it to imply the amateur lacks respect for others or himself is self centered on the pro's part.

  lay out the cause and effect, explain it's effect on you, cool. start questioning our morality, implying we don't respect you or even ourselves and i think you widen the schism between pro and amateur.  throw in a few comments about snapshooters or bemoan the general lack of quality of the shots getting published at the same time preaching  to others about respect, well, mixed message huh?

richard, if you are percieving this thread or reply as an attack, slow down and look at the characterizations being layed on us.

[Erik]

I think two of the almost-unsaid questions that are causing this discussion to be so tiring are: 1) Are the pictures taken by pros that much better than the pictures taken by amateurs? and 2) Do pros have a right to reasonably expect that amateurs charge for their (amateurs') pictures?

Now those questions just beg me to ask a few of my own. What actually defines a "pro"? I know the definition of a pro is someone who generates the majority of his income with (aviation) photography.

But now let me apply that logic to your first question - would my photos suddenly get better just if I would turn professional and quit my regular job? Although the question is absurd, the label "pro" doesn't mean that someone is a gifted photographer. In fact, if someone isn't - but still manages to make a living, that means he (or she) is a gifted businessman. There are plenty of "pro's" that aren't exceptionally good photographers but they are good at marketing themselves and finding niches where the quality of their work is more than adequate.

[IMARLOW]

Comments such as those thrown into the debate by Richard, do little if anything to up the anti in persuading me to have any sympathy of this perceived plight of the Pros.
Re reading this thread there have been some very telling comments written, knocking not only those who dare to sell below a certain rate and indeed the public that have the audacity to buy those publications containing lower quality images.

So perhaps then how many Pros have never sold images below the market rate? (whatever that may be)
How many Pros have never given images as freebies in order to further thier career and earning potential?

I would hazard a guess and say none, yet some are quing up here to slate those that do.
Sorry chaps, you really need to wake up to reality, there are many (i dont count myself as one of them) on forums such as this that can and regularly do capture images as good as if not better than the Pros.
If i see an image i like it matters not one iota to me who took it, my perceived quality is what matters.
As with images i take, i have had soem very favourabel commnets on images i was not happy with and woudl normally of binned.
So the publ;ic are fickle in what they want to see and each has their own idea of what appeals to them and what doesnt.
The pros need to respect the public a little more instead of slating their taste, ultimately it will be the buying public who determine fate of an image.
If they see publications with decent images within, do they really care who took the image? of course they dont.
I place great value on my images, or at least those that i keep; the value to me is the pleasure i get from taking the image abd knowing it turned out well for me.
Should someone offer me payment for an image it is an added bonus that i wont turn down just in case a pro gets upset.

[Jim Froneberger]

ultimately it will be the buying public who determine fate of an image.
If they see publications with decent images within, do they really care who took the image? of course they dont.
I place great value on my images, or at least those that i keep; the value to me is the pleasure i get from taking the image abd knowing it turned out well for me.
Should someone offer me payment for an image it is an added bonus that i wont turn down just in case a pro gets upset.

Of course the public doesn't care who took the image... pro or amateur....but just because you are an amateur, don't automatically assume you can't get paid.

You said it yourself - you put great value on your images - others may as well - whether you are a pro or an amateur.

So if others place value on it, it means it is marketable..so instead of waiting to see if someone will  - unsolicited - offer you money for it, try asking for a small fee. All they can say is no, and then you can decide to give it away or not. Sometimes, if you just ask, you might be surprised what the answer is - maybe not - but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Some potential purchasers can't afford to pay - and that's OK - but it doesn't hurt to ask.

I think that's all Richard and the others are saying...it doesn't hurt to ask for some modest compensation. If you produce images that are in demand, you are producing something of value. Why cheat yourself?

It's a great feeling to see your images in print. But it's an even greater feeling to see you images in print and know you got paid for it.

It is a free market, so you are entitled to charge what you want - even if it is nothing - and in my opinion, that doesn't make you any less of a photographer or any less of an ethical person. But who wouldn't want a few extra bucks in their pocket. Why not try?

Jim

[Jez]

Has it occurred to some professionals that it may not be worth an amateur’s time to go to the effort of actually charging for a photograph?

Has it occurred to some professionals that if I evaluate the time it takes to sell a photograph (negotiate price & terms, collect payment etc.) using the hourly rate I get for my day job, selling a photograph may not prove profitable.

Maybe the amateur does not need the extra money, maybe the amateur is not set up to provide invoicing and deal with the associated contractual problems that could occur. If a picture is provided free, then the owner can more easily control terms of supply.

[k5083]

So if others place value on it, it means it is marketable..so instead of waiting to see if someone will  - unsolicited - offer you money for it, try asking for a small fee. All they can say is no, and then you can decide to give it away or not. Sometimes, if you just ask, you might be surprised what the answer is - maybe not - but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Some potential purchasers can't afford to pay - and that's OK - but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Incorrect.  They can say more than no and it can hurt to ask.  They can say no, and by the way don't bother calling me again asking for a chance to shoot my plane, or on my base.  They can say no, I'll give some other photog who is willing to offer a freebie a chance to get a foot in the door of my publication, and you'll never hear from me again.  They can say lots of things besides no -- or they can say just no, but be thinking those other things, and you're hurt and don't even know it until the opportunities dry up.

In fact, I'd be very surprised if a pro thought that it "doesn't hurt" to ask for too much; I think any business person knows very well that overpricing can result in consequences beyond just losing the one gig.  So I sense a double standard in this advice.  Asking for even a dollar could foreclose opportunities down the road, and since opportunities to take more and better pics are very important to amateurs, many of us wouldn't put those opportunities at risk for a dollar.

I think that's all Richard and the others are saying...it doesn't hurt to ask for some modest compensation. If you produce images that are in demand, you are producing something of value. Why cheat yourself?

It's a great feeling to see your images in print. But it's an even greater feeling to see you images in print and know you got paid for it.

I see the smiley, but I think you might be serious.  You need to see how wrong that is for some people.  I don't want money -- especially not chump change -- for taking pictures.  It would turn a fun hobby into a low-paying job.  Just like I don't want money for playing golf, for making love, for raising my child.  It wouldn't increase my satisfaction or sense of self-worth in the slightest.  And, like Jez says, I don't need to deal with the overhead it would add.

In sum:  Pros should not pretend there is no answer to "Why not ask for a few bucks?"  There are good reasons.

August

[IMARLOW]

The problem here is comments like this:
"My comments on the sad state of aviation photography probably reflect simply on poor consumer taste, and not anyone's lack of talent. "

If that is a view of the buying public 9of which i consider myself to be) then the pros are going to have a hard time convincing anyone.
In very basic terms it sounds to me like the pros want every one to demand a market price for their images, to protect their earnings potential, whilst i wouldnt wish anyone to be in a position that they fail to earn a livign from thier works at the same time i do think it is a little rich to read soem of the very shall we be diplomatic and say pointed comments written by those trying to get others to sympathise with the pros.
Sorry chaps but lookign at the overall comments aimed at those not in the pro field i think they have been synical and arrogant, they have shown little empathy for the none pro and general public alike.
Little wonder therefore there doesn't appear to be too many people on here showign too much sympathy.
One word the Pros do seem to of missed out on whilst in a hurry to ram down our throats ethics, morals etc etc was respect.
Show a littel repsect towards those that buy the products containiung the images and those who do not and may not want to earn a living from their images and you might just get a little bit of an easier time.

[Erik]

Sorry chaps but looking at the overall comments aimed at those not in the pro field i think they have been cynical and arrogant, they have shown little empathy for the none pro and general public alike.

Can you quote a few of these comments? If I came across as cynical or arrogant I do apologize, that was not my intention.

[KevinJackson]

Leave it Erik, he was talking about pro's, not you! 

[Erik]

Leave it Erik, he was talking about pro's, not you! 

He couldn't mean you either Kev, no pro would lose his imagetank TWICE when going to a carrier in the Gulf! 

[KevinJackson]

Leave it Erik, he was talking about pro's, not you! 

He couldn't mean you either Kev, no pro would lose his imagetank TWICE when going to a carrier in the Gulf! 

No fair! Emirates lost it the second time, and yes, you saved my life by having your one with you!

I've kept out of this topic, I think enough's been said already on the pro v's non pro standpoint

[IMARLOW]

Erik.
Not going to go down the lines fo disecting each posting, the qoute in my message speaks volumes.
Simple really if the cap fits.....

[RichardVM]

Has it occurred to some professionals that if I evaluate the time it takes to sell a photograph (negotiate price & terms, collect payment etc.) using the hourly rate I get for my day job, selling a photograph may not prove profitable.

I would suggest that every professional has considered that mattter. If people want to give away their images, I can't and won't stop them.

There are arguments for and from every side. Some companies/magazines won't work with me because I charge too much. Some work with me because I charge more, and they expect more, like being able to track me down on location and still get the image they need before going to print.

If a person feels OK with what they're doing, it's legal, and they're not concerned how they effect others...Do what feels right to you.

Richard

[mik]

If a person feels OK with what they're doing, it's legal, and they're not concerned how they effect others...Do what feels right to you.

Richard

you just aren't getting it. "not concerned how they effect others". you don't really have the right to place any expectations on anyone else and use language trying to guilt us. that's the real beef here and it's based on self serving monetary motives, hardly an area on strength from which to launch a moral argument.

[IMARLOW]

Just to set out my stall and to avoid any confusion:

Any aviation photography i do, i do for the sheer enjoyment of the hobby nothing more or less.
I dont offer my pics for sale or indeed give them away (they aren't that good in comparison to any one's on here).

But if the pros feel so threatened and seek to imply those that are not pro and sell or give away images are affecting thier livelyhoods perhaps they should come out and say what woudl be acceptable ball park figures for selling images.

Chances of that happening i would guess are remote!
Personally i find the ramming down our throats of ethics and morals a little bit of a bitter lemon, what they are seekign to do is protect their side of the fence with the none pros garunteeing or subsidising their income.
The pros would would be jumping with joy if overnight the none pro was taken out of the equasion, would they then bang on about ethics and morals and fight the none pro cause?
Of course they wouldn't.
Sorry chaps but i havent yet read a suitable arguement to instil any form of sympathy