When might it not be ok to stand up at an airshow?

[Bernardo Malfitano]

B52H Buff makes an interesting point in the Salinas thread:

I hope the picture of the FC folks standing on the grandstand comes out.  It raises an issue that has hit me several times during the course of my various visits to Salinas.

Let me ask folks a question...  If I have paid for a grandstand seat, what is the proper response when a photographer continuously stands up in front of me and my child and blocks our view?

Historically, I have decided that I wanted to enjoy the seat that I paid for.  And therefore I have asked politely for the photographer to please move or sit down.  I find it frustrating that I even have to ask.  Usually, I am visiting with my young children, and having my children stand up isn't an option.  I'm getting older too, and I would like to enjoy watching the airshow sitting down, hence why I bought a grandstand ticket instead of standing out on the ramp.

I'm wondering why it seems endemic to the 'serious amateur photographer' that they tend to be oblivious to others around them?  What are photographers thinking when they stand up in front of folks?

Anyway, as has happened during the last several years, after asking the photographer to please move, the first response is that "Hey, I'm taking pictures!"  Attention photographers, if you're taking pictures with a large black dSLR and a long telephoto lens, I can usually figure this out myself.  My response is to once again point out that others (typically non-photographers) are enjoying the show sitting down and perhaps they could consider one of the previous options we had discussed (e.g. sitting down or getting out of my field of view).

So I apologize if the sarcasm/frustration clouds the final message, which is this...  please be courteous of your surroundings.  I will make every attempt to be polite in my requests.  However, I really want to enjoy the seat that I paid for.  I admit that I find it frustrating that I have to ask you sit down, since everyone else wants to enjoy the airshow as much as you do, even if we don't share your hobby we still would like to see the show.

I think I'm going to be asking the airshow folks if they can do a better job policing photographers standing in the grandstands.  Feel free to enjoy your hobby, but please don't deny others their enjoyment because somehow 'taking pictures' makes you special...

Midnight Storm replies,

I can't speak for others, but I've always made sure I'm in one of the top two rows just for that reason. I'm not blocking anybody. I'm sure you'll find this true with just about everybody else on this forum.

You need to becareful of what you say next, because you just might piss a few people off, after all this is a site full of photographers. The person standing in front of you has just as much rights to be there as you, and NOWHERE on your ticket does it say you have to remain sitting, like you would see on a sports event ticket.

Once again this is not the proper place to bring this sort of topic up. IMO there are better places on this forum for such a topic.

I think it's fair to bring this up for discussion. What do you think?

[Keith Breazeal]

moved to here...

Been there, done that.  The only reason a photographer pays money for that top row seat is not to be in a position of blocking or being blocked.  Why do they buy those seats?  Not enough good area is available for them to get the shots.  They show layout requires the box seats and sponsor tents to be where they are because that is what makes the show possible- their money/sponsorships are they backbone for success.  That leaves photographers no choice but shoot from the highest point available- the grandstands.  It's a catch 22.  The solution is not killing media- that can turn around and be very bad for a show.  The solution is accomodation by design.  Create an amateur/pro photographer area that is the best location and charge for it.  I paid the Moffett airshow to construct a filming scaffold that was behind the grandstand.  Adding a platform to the rear of the grandstands would be the ultimate filming location.  No kids and spectators allowed, period.

[b52hbuff]

...ok, fair to move.  But I started the post in the Salinas thread since it has only effected me at Salinas.  I have attended pretty much every major show in California and I haven't had near the number of 'encounters' as I have had at Salinas.  Granted at other shows, folks stand for the headliner (and the national anthem:)), but during the headliner, most of the action is in the air anyway.

Here is my followup to the other poster....

I can't speak for others, but I've always made sure I'm in one of the top two rows just for that reason. I'm not blocking anybody. I'm sure you'll find this true with just about everybody else on this forum.

You need to becareful of what you say next, because you just might piss a few people off, after all this is a site full of photographers. The person standing in front of you has just as much rights to be there as you, and NOWHERE on your ticket does it say you have to remain sitting, like you would see on a sports event ticket.

Thank you, you bring up some interesting points.  The most important point is that I'm not inditing everyone on this board.  Photographers are like children, you only notice the rude ones.  And I am certainly not implying a blanket comment.

The next point you bring up is debatable.  I know for a fact that at least one of the folks I dealt with was an FCer.  Once again, no need to name names.  The point isn't to indite, but to educate.

And the third point is very valid, and I had never considered it.  Is it required to sit down in the grandstand?  I will take it as an action item to follow up with the CIA staff.  I will report (assuming I'm not banned ).

One other item to consider is if CIA staff could make a standing room only section out of a corner of the grandstand?  Or perhaps provide some other sequestered area.  In this case, we could eliminate the 'requirement' to stand in the grandstands and block others' view.

[b52hbuff]

moved to here...

Been there, done that.  The only reason a photographer pays money for that top row seat is not to be in a position of blocking or being blocked.  Why do they buy those seats?  Not enough good area is available for them to get the shots.

Let me clarify here...  *I* was in the top row seat.  The photographer was in front of me and in a seat he had not paid for.

So I am not 'anti-standing in the grandstands', I am 'anti-view blocking'.  If a photographer (or non-photographer) wants to stand and not block someone's view, that is ok by me.  What isn't ok is someone thinking that a camera gives them a right to take away a seat/view I have paid for...

[Bernardo Malfitano]

Arguments for "I can stand up, screw everyone else" include

1) I got in line before gates-open so I could get a good spot right by the FOD fence. If you want an unobstructed view, then that's what it takes.

2) I'm trying to get published / trying to help the airshow organizers publicize the event / trying to help an airshow performer publicize their abilities, so I'm more "important" than the average spectator.

3) At a rock concert, sporting event, etc, you would not expect everyone to sit down. If you insist on not standing up, then you're simply not going to see anything, other than the back of the person in front of you. That's part of how those events work.

4) Pretty soon the Blues/Tbirds/Snowbirds (or whatever the highlight is) will go up, and at that point EVERYONE will stand up. Will you ask everyone to sit down then?

Arguments for being a little more mindful are

1) If you let little kids stand in front of you, they really don't get in the way.

2) Similarly, moving back two meters and letting a handicapped or elderly person set up their seat in front of you is not the end of the world.

3) Someone sitting behind you on the bleachers paid for their seat just like you did, and actually probably got there (or to the website) BEFORE you did.

4) Bleacher seats should be steep enough that if the person in front of you is seated, you can shoot over their head easily without standing up, except for the occasional wide-angle crowd shot.

So I can see how reasonable people may disagree here.

My take on it is:

 - If I'm working for the airshow or for a publication, then I should have access to the media area or flight line. If the airshow did not grant me that access, then I am not "more important" than any other spectator.

 - If I got there early so I could get a first-row seat, I'm standing up for most of the show. If the person behind me is committed to staying seated - especially if they are very old, very young, etc - then I might be persuaded to switch spots, especially if they don't mind me coming up to the fence a few times for taxi shots.

 - In the bleachers, I try to stay seated while the person in front of me is seated. I don't always succeed (airshows are exciting). In the case of Salinas, the person in the row behind me AND the person in the row behind HIM were both photographers holding 400 or 500 mm of glass, and stood up almost continuously, so it wasn't an issue (although when I stood up I did bump my head on GFY Dad's lens a couple times. Sorry!)

It would be interesting to get an European photog's take on this. Last summer I went to my first three airshows in Europe - the photogs get there early and rope off areas for themselves, and this seems to be standard operating procedure. Very different from the US. Do they even have any kind of problem at all over there with the spectators behind them asking them to sit down or invading their space?

[Jon H.]

You go to concerts and people stand up in front of you...  you go to sporting events and people stand up in front of you... you go to air shows and people stand up in front of you.   You'll be hard pressed to find an entertainment event where people won't be standing up in front of you.  What air shows offer that most other events don't is the ability to get there early and stake you claim up front by the fence.

Unless you're breathing down his neck the photographer is only blocking a few degrees of your field of view.  Nearly everyone has their view blocked by something at an air show... other people, speakers, antennas, cars and numerous other things all get in the way whether your just watching or taking photos.

[todd_atwood]

I think that you simply have to use common courtesy and common sense.  If you are in the grandstands and not in the last couple of rows, don't stand up during the whole show.  Be aware of your surroundings.  Others may only be there for the show, not photography.  Salinas is different than say Reno where there is general admission seating.  At Reno, it's first come first serve and you should be allowed to stand if you were there first.  Advise those around you that you plan on doing just that so that they can make the decision to stay or move to another location.  At Salinas, where you pay for your seat, as photographers, we should be more concious of what we are doing.  
I didn't want to stand in front of anyone this year so I went with general admission on Saturday and a box seat on Sunday.  I was able to stand in the box seat section as there was no one directly behind me.  If there had been, there is plenty of room at the back of the section to stand in without having to squeeze next to everyone.

Common sense.  I know that it sometimes goes out the window when there is the smell of jet fuel in the air, but......

[Midnight Storm]

And the third point is very valid, and I had never considered it.  Is it required to sit down in the grandstand?  I will take it as an action item to follow up with the CIA staff.  I will report (assuming I'm not banned ).

One other item to consider is if CIA staff could make a standing room only section out of a corner of the grandstand?  Or perhaps provide some other sequestered area.  In this case, we could eliminate the 'requirement' to stand in the grandstands and block others' view.

At Reno, they have a top row just for photographers, with no seats at all, and let me tell you, It works out well for every one. 

[Tonyz]

Please keep this discussion civil.  There is no reason for anyone to call anyone else names or instigate arguments here.  If you have a problem with someone's behavior deal with it in a personal manner, not on these boards.  Thanks.

Bernardo...yeah, there are the same issues at European shows.  I saw some people at Duxford get pretty pissy with some Dutch guys who had done the rope off area bit and even while standing right at the fence line climbed on on their little ladders for just that bit of extra view.   I hae read somewhere that some UK shows are looking to ban ladders in the future.

[b52hbuff]

You go to concerts and people stand up in front of you...  you go to sporting events and people stand up in front of you... you go to air shows and people stand up in front of you.   You'll be hard pressed to find an entertainment event where people won't be standing up in front of you.  What air shows offer that most other events don't is the ability to get there early and stake you claim up front by the fence.

Unless you're breathing down his neck the photographer is only blocking a few degrees of your field of view.  Nearly everyone has their view blocked by something at an air show... other people, speakers, antennas, cars and numerous other things all get in the way whether your just watching or taking photos.

I agree, apples are not oranges.  Sometimes standing is appropriate and sometimes it isn't.  There isn't one case of 'standing up' mentioned in this thread that I don't agree with.

...but by considering all of these tangential scenarios, you miss and dilute the one and only one scenario that I have found frustrating...

Once again, my point is that if you have *paid* for a specific seat at an airshow, is it reasonable for someone in the seat in front of you to constantly stand up in front of you?  If someone has purchased seating, one presumes that they want to sit.  Most airshows have far more areas to stand.  So if you want to stand, why not go over to the standing area?

My expectation is that grandstand seats are constructs in such a way so that generaly everyone gets a pretty decent view if everyone is sitting down.

I can't recall the show, but I do remember a show that banned umbrellas due to line of sight issues.

[Keith Breazeal]

I've been shooting airshows since some of you were in diapers.  Nothing has changed over the years.  Airshows need to look at this issue and design the solution.  They can make extra money that the photographer is willing to spend for that golden spot on the field.  See my post above.  Back to cat constantly standing in front of the monitor blocking my photo editing.   

[Bernardo Malfitano]

I have read somewhere that some UK shows are looking to ban ladders in the future.

That's right, they have LADDERS over there! I forgot that part. But my impression is that everyone agreed on what the rules are over there; I didn't see anyone at Fairford or Duxford invading the little areas that photogs roped off, or complaining about ladders. At Kleine Brogel the crowd behind the photogs did push in a little bit, but that's because there wasn't a whole lot of room between the FOD fence / rope and the trees, and we did what we could to fit more people closer to the rope (while at Duxford and Fairford the crowd area was nice and deep). Some kids even sat in FRONT of the rope (the FAA would have loved that, lemme tell ya).

[Clubber]

Interesting thread and debate...

Nothing has changed over the years.  Airshows need to look at this issue and design the solution.

Actually, one airshow I was at 2 weekends ago solved this issue with great success! Over the past years at the Oceana airshow, the ES Chalet was FULL of photographers who arrived early in the morning staking their claim to the front rows (in a line of about 12-15). From the first takeoff to the last landing, they stood all day long virtually blocking the view for those in the next row or two. After many complaints, Corky and his team made a "photographers area" in the ESC to accommodate the guys with big lenses. Anyone who was sporting 'big glass' and who was not in this area was PROMPLTY asked to move to this spot. Even though some photogs were not in the front row, they managed to get their photos with ease. Everyone got what they wanted; the photogs got their pictures and the spectators got to watch the action.

As much as people like to get closer to the action, if you're sporting glass from 400mm onward, you don't NEED to be in the front row...

[b52hbuff]

Interesting thread and debate...

Actually, one airshow I was at 2 weekends ago solved this issue with great success! Over the past years at the Oceana airshow, the ES Chalet was FULL of photographers who arrived early in the morning staking their claim to the front rows (in a line of about 12-15). From the first takeoff to the last landing, they stood all day long virtually blocking the view for those in the next row or two.

You sparked an old memory.  When I used to get chalet seats at Miramar, I used to arrive at gate opening to ensure I'd save a front row seat.  The Navy (and later Marines) would enforce a 'no standing' policy for folks at the front edge of the chalet seating (which was simply folding chairs on the ramp behind the orange 'snow fence'), so that others could still see.

[Midnight Storm]

As much as people like to get closer to the action, if you're sporting glass from 400mm onward, you don't NEED to be in the front row...

HUH? Yeah... un-till Sean D. Tucker does his 10ft flyby or the Raptor does his full AB take off at 15ft. Last time I checked the Front Row is the best spot un-till you add Grandstands.